Sunday, August 14, 2005

The 10 commandments DID exist before Moses

(This is a response to this post)
I've heard many times people saying that the 10 comamndments did not exist before Moses. Nothing can be further from the truth. So i compiled some sort of model answer to this specific statement. Feel free to cut and paste.

The Decalogue commands men not to make idols, not to take God's name in vain, not to kill, not to stael, or commit adultery. Could we possibly bring ourselves to believe that such a code of laws was not in force before Moses? There are some things too incredible to warrant belief, and this is one of them. Nor do any of the leading denominations thus believe (see below).

Paul mentions that "Where there is no law, there is no transgression, ...for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Rom 4:15,3:20). We are left in no posible doubt as to what law is intended for Paul adds later, "I had not known sin, but by the law: for i had no known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Rom 7:7. And what law says, "Thou shalt not covet"? The 10 commandment law.

When James spoke of those who "you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers." he also left no doubt as to which law he meant. It is the law that says, "Do not commit adultery," and, "Do not kill." James 2:9-11.

There are those who say that sin is a disregard for some law, but not necessarily the 10 commandments. But that is not what Paul and James say. Furthermore, if you examine carefully, you'll notice that all sinful deeds of devils and ancient men can be judged and condemned in terms of the 10 commandments.

Having the 10 commandments codified and formally proclaimed does not mean that it wasn't in force before that. To take a page from history, England, for long centuries, has had what is known as "the common law".

common law
n. the traditional unwritten law of England, based on custom and usage, which began to develop over a thousand years before the founding of the United States. The best of the pre-Saxon compendiums of the common law was reportedly written by a woman, Queen Martia, wife of a king of a small English kingdom. Together with a book on the "law of the monarchy" by a Duke of Cornwall, Queen Martia's work was translated into the emerging English language by King Alfred (849-899 A.D.). When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, he combined the best of this Anglo-Saxon law with Norman law, which resulted in the English common law, much of which was by custom and precedent rather than by written code. By the 14th century legal decisions and commentaries on the common law began providing precedents for the courts and lawyers to follow. It did not include the so-called law of equity (chancery), which came from the royal power to order or prohibit specific acts. The common law became the basic law of most states due to the Commentaries on the Laws of England, completed by Sir William Blackstone in 1769, which became every American lawyer's bible. Today almost all common law has been enacted into statutes with modern variations by all the states except Louisiana, which is still influenced by the Napoleonic Code. In some states the principles of Common Law are so basic they are applied without reference to statute.


History tells us that a law need not be formally proclaimed or written in a book in order to be in force.
Even so with the moral laws of God and man. When Adam and Eve were created they were perfect and served God with a whole heart. Hence we properly conclude that they had the law of God written in their hearts. God also talked to them. For a lifetime of nearly a thousand years, they were permitted to pass on the divine instruction they had received.

The next question then would be why were the 10 commandments codified finally? Because by the time of Moses and the children of Israel, the knowledge of God and His laws had become so blurred in men's minds that it became necessary that a written revelation be given to the world. Coming directly out of Egyptian darkness, the Israelites were in special need of clear-cut declarations on the great moral precepts. For this reason God with His own finger carved in the everlasting stone the 10 commandments. No one need then be in doubt. The changing moral conceptions of those Israelites could ever be corrected by the unchanging words graven in the stone.


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Protestantism in general believes three important facts concerning the law
1) That the Decalogue is God's moral standard for Christians.
2) That there is a clear distinction between the Decalogue and the ceremonial and other laws of ancient Israel.
3) That obedience to the Decalogue is not to be construed as being contrary in any way to grace - that law and gospel belong otgether in the Christian life.
(see next post on The Foundation of Christendom)

7 comments:

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

You do have some valid points here but however we are treading on very dangerous shaky ground here when we say that keeping the law is alright. For that, I am not sure that you fully understand the purpose of the Law in the first place.

Your argument does not strengthen your stance at all. Before the Law was given at Mt. Sinai, grace was in full effect. God showed Abram much grace even when he did sin against God with unbelief and went on to conceive a child (Ishmael) by the flesh with Hagar. Later on, what more God called Abraham a friend! If the 10 commandments was in effect in the first place, Abraham wouldn't have lived that long. For no sin, under the Law, goes unpunished. These 10 commandments were written were perfect! There are no loopholes. You keep one, you keep them all. It was designed to expose the weakness of our flesh and to show us the need for a Saviour.

We cannot assume that there was any law written on Adam and Eve, especially when the assumption is based on circumstantial evidence and postulation. However, when Jesus said He would write the Laws on your heart, consider that He has written these 3 spiritual laws instead. Law of Spirit of Life, Law of Faith and Law of Love; by which none of them need the effort of man to keep but and in-built nature of a born-again Christian.

Concluding; your facts and findings have not been based on scripture prior to law-giving by God at Mt. Sinai. Let the Bible explain the Bible. God's words is sufficient for us. Having said that, perhaps if you would point us to some solid evidence from the Bible, then your argument would be deem valid and credible.

Anonymous said...

"We cannot assume that there was any law written on Adam and Eve, especially when the assumption is based on circumstantial evidence and postulation. However, when Jesus said He would write the Laws on your heart, consider that He has written these 3 spiritual laws instead. Law of Spirit of Life, Law of Faith and Law of Love; by which none of them need the effort of man to keep but and in-built nature of a born-again Christian.
"

We can assume - there was already a law in place. God commanded adam and eve not to eat frm THE tree. That in itself was a law. There were no need for other laws as everything was perfect. The law was in place as humans had the power to choose. Without anything to make a conscious decision over in a perfect world, would there have been a need for us to have the power of choice? that aside, the three 'laws' that you have identified encompasses the ten commandments in itself. Doesn't it?

"God showed Abram much grace even when he did sin against God with unbelief and went on to conceive a child (Ishmael) by the flesh with Hagar. Later on, what more God called Abraham a friend! "

How about David? The man who committed adultry, murdered and did so much more - he was called the man after God's own heart! Imagine that! The commandments are not to condemn us. Sure, they're there so that we learn that we've done wrong, but they're there to save us. As gold is melted to remove the impurities, so are we purified in the same way. Abraham's mistake might look like it went unpunished, but did it? Look at the descendants of Ismael... look at present day middle east. The descendants of the 2 tribes cannot get along at all! Wars, fights and so much violence... consequences. Nothing goes unpunished. God's got a funny way of dishing out 'punishment'... sometimes not to the person who committed the 'crime'; it seems unfair, but it happens.

Conclusion: the bible does not speak out directly on every issue that anyone can ever come up with. we shouldnt lose track on bringing the message of love to the world. debates are fun and informative, but destructive when they are dwelt upon and when opposing sides constantly criticise each others' points. lets all work together and hasten the coming of Christ :) we'll have eternity to debate with God (da all knowing guy) as our judge.

sheep said...

"If the 10 commandments was in effect in the first place, Abraham wouldn't have lived that long. For no sin, under the Law, goes unpunished."

This is incorrect. Consequences does not necessarily result immediately when the person breaks the 10 commandments. Consequences can be delayed. The reason why consequences was meted out so quickly in Moses' days was because God was extremely close to them physically. The people had the opportunity to not only hear but see God and His presence. Where there is much knowledge comes much responsibility and that's why they had no excuse when they sinned. When the consequences were meted out, it meant their judgement(whether they would go to heaven or hell) too. For us now, our consequences may or may not be delayed. But our judgement is delayed as we wait for the 2nd coming for our rewards whether good or bad.

P.S. Thanks for the previous poster, i agree with what he said.

Anonymous said...

The Letter. The written Law. The 10 commandments was not made to save us. If it did, 3000 would not die the time it was given to the Jews. And if it did "save" us in the first place, there would not be a need for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Brothers, we cannot assume anything. At all. What does the Bible say about this issue? Keeping of the 10 commandments is no longer needed thanks to Jesus. For the letter of the Law kills and grace gives life.

Yes, we are judged when He comes back for us, our works are tested with fire. But there will no longer be punishment; there will be rewards on top of rewards...

I challenge you both to point out to me, punishment for the believer.

fssantos said...

Our Savior Jesus Christ Himself said:

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John wrote:
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

Paul wrote:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Anonymous said...

Santos, I think you”re being too subtle.

hereby we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” & doesn’t keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought also to walk, even as He walked. — 1John 2:3-6

If that’s not enough, consider how embarrassing this would be in front of the entire universe:

Not every one that saith unto me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? & in Thy name have cast out devils? & in Thy name done many wonderful works?’ Then I will profess [confess] to them, ‘I never knew you: depart from me, you that work lawlessness [anomia]’.” — Matthew 7:21-23